Ragnarokast E17 Transcript

Steven

I’m Steven. 

Spencer

And I’m Spencer. Welcome to Ragnarokast, your podcast for all things marketing and MarTech. 

Steven

Hello everyone. 

Both

We’re the Co-CEOs of Ragnarok. 

Steven

I’m Steven. I’m Spencer. We are the co-CEOs of Ragnarok.

Spencer

Hi everyone. And today we have an honorary, we have an honorary third Co CEO with us. Drew, welcome Drew. 

Drew

Thank you. Thank you guys for having me. Drew Price great to be here. 

Spencer

Drew Price in the house, 

Drew

Just, well, I just noticed that I was the only one without my last name in, in the podcast, but that’s okay. 

Spencer

You’re like Rihanna or Beyonce now you’re just Drew. 

Drew

That’s right, 

Spencer

That’s right. Capital letters. 

Steven

Do you feel like you’re past tense a lot of the times? You know, like, I’m not draw, I’m Drew, 

Drew

That’s a wrap

Spencer

Next year I’ll be going to draw. 

So if, if anybody gets through the whole episode, you might notice that we’re in this set of clothes and then a different set of clothes in a different location. Well, I’m in a different location anyway. And then it goes back to this, that’s because of our, our, we can’t talk about it publicly, but we have this proprietary sort of time bending technology. 

So basically, if you see it happen, don’t worry about it. It, it’s, it’s just, you know, these, these aren’t the droids you’re looking for. Okay. Don’t worry about it. 

Steven

So you’ll wanna talk about how Drew asked us just some really tough questions and had us sweating so bad we had to change our shirts and our locations. 

Spencer

Yeah. And, and you know, the video actually, the video quality has never changed and has always been perfectly fine. 

Steven

Absolutely. 

Spencer

So, okay. So Drew, would you mind introducing us to yourself 

Drew

Sure. 

Spencer

And your background. 

Drew

Yeah, absolutely. Spencer. So, hi, I’m Drew Price. I’m a lifecycle marketing advisor. I’ve been in the space for about 15 to 20 years. Most of that was leading programs on the brand side. These days I do a lot of advisory work, content courses, and some freelance project work as well. But the last time I led on the brand side was 2020, leaving my post at Grammarly and excited to be here and jam out on all things lifecycle. 

Spencer

Excellent. You have an excellent Substack. 

Drew

Thank you. 

Spencer

And the, the article, there’s actually an article on there that, that inspired us to, to do this episode. 

Do you mind talking a bit about how, what inspired you to, to, to start that? 

Drew

Yeah. The Substack itself, my goals when leaving my post at Grammarly was to lean into mentorship as much as possible. So kind of my, my primary audience are CRM leads are lifecycle leads, not so much the brands anymore and the sandboxes they’re in. So I’m speaking to my former self as well as just these, the, the next generation of talent. And I’m trying to say the things that people need to hear, and oftentimes it’s the, the stuff that they already know, but they just need to hear it from an outside source and someone who’s been there before and has made the same mistakes. So that is, that’s kind of, the origin story of why scaling CRM and then since then, that principle of it being for CRM leads is true. But the way I attack that, it really, it, it changes all the time because I’m just differentiating as much as possible or trying to keep it fresh— I might do a vendor spotlight. I might talk about relationships with agencies. I might talk about case studies strategy. I sometimes I’m self-promoting courses that I’m doing. But it’s all in the interest of empowerment and upleveling as much as possible. 

Spencer

I I like that you, you’re saying that it’s stuff that people may already know, but either they don’t realize they know it or they don’t think other people know it. To use an example, I was, I was on Instagram a few months back and there was a post about, 

Steven

Not during work hours, I hope. 

Spencer 

No, it was, it was definitely at like, you know, 7:00 PM or 11:00 PM or so I honestly, it was probably at two in the morning. 

No, but there was a post and it said like, when I was a kid, you know, I used to, when I was bored and looking out the window and my parents were driving, I would pretend that there was a little man running alongside me on the side of the road. And then there was all these reactions, like, oh wait, I completely forgot about that. I did the same thing, like my version of it was that there was a ninja running along the power lines, but other people were like, there, there was a guy on a motorcycle doing tricks. 

And it’s just like, it’s funny, like it’s all, it’s this thing that you, everybody apparently did, but no one realized it. And so it, it was nice to hear it just said out loud sometimes, even if it seems obvious, it’s not. You just need to be the person to say it and that, that actually has a lot of power to it. 

Steven

Well, listen, I, you know, when I’m going through and, you know, I’m humming and I’m driving down, you know, the work lane and doing some advisement. I’ve always got Drew in my, my, you know, my sidecar on my motorcycle, just, he’s there he is with me. I’ve, I’ve got, I’ve got the advice ready to go. I’m ready to throw him out there. 

Spencer

Okay. Wait, wait. So, so you’re, you’re doing technical consulting and you, you’re saying that you look out the window and you see Drew there, and he is giving you advice. 

Steven

He’s like, you’re talking to the marketing team, buddy. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta make this marketing friendly. 

Spencer

And you realize he’s not there though, right? Like that’s, or or do you think he’s actually there? That’s, that’s the line that we have to draw. 

Steven

I’ll leave that to the audience to decide if he is there or not. Okay. 

Spencer

That, that, there’s a, A Beautiful Mind 2 for you right there. 

[transition]

Spencer

So getting into like your experience, you know, with the agency model, obviously Steven and I, what would tout this all day, but in terms of your agency plus one, you know, how, how, as a, a marketer has it been useful for you? Could, could you break that down to it for, into those component parts for us?

Drew

When I tried to handle certain things myself that involved technical know-how of a platform, it could turn a 15-minute task into multiple half-day sessions of trial and error trial, which therefore impacted my mental health, which therefore also impacted the ultimate solution implemented. 

And then if you continue those habits, you create this false positive of excellence when in fact you’re just constantly duct-taping solutions together left and right. And at the scale of Grammarly, not that many people will achieve that type of scale because we’re talking, you know, tens of millions of active users, hundreds of millions of people in the database. Like even at the early stages, me incorrectly setting up a trigger email or setting up a journey incorrectly, or setting up sequences incorrectly or mapping fields incorrectly, that has such downstream impact. And that when you’re running that lean, oftentimes you’re not gonna recognize that there’s been an error pushed into  production. 

Maybe never you’re just creating skeletons in the closet, or if you do hear it, it could be from an upset customer or upset internal team member. 

So there’s just so many reasons not to glorify us learning all the things, learning how to set stand up technical items, learning how learning Liquid learning, CSS learning, SQL learning, all those things on top of all the other responsibilities. I think that that’s actually a very narrow-minded, less scalable approach. And oftentimes also outsourcing externally is cheaper than getting internal resources to learn and develop as well. 

Steven

That makes a lot of sense. Why do you think people want to learn all these skills and, and, and do all this, like, like what sort of drives somebody to be like, you know, I need to learn everything, I need to set it at the ground level. What, yeah. Or, or just even at the ground level when you’re, when, when you’re, when you’re sort of taking this role on setting the expectation of like, look, I’m not gonna do everything right. Like, I’m gonna do some of these things, I’m gonna do some of these, but I’m not gonna do this. You know, like, like do those boundaries just because it’s a startup nature, they’re, they’re just assumed to be not, not there. 

Or is it people just are excited to learn and grow or they like to, like, what do you think kind of leads to somebody spreading themselves so thin in, in, in the, you know, in the, in your example of having a lean team, 

Drew

I think typically the, there’s, there’s not negative intent or it’s not like a toxic culture type of an attribute or anything like that. I do think that sometimes we play the emulation game in startups where you see someone interprets how the CEO is behaving well, they’re, they’re doing hiring too, and they’re the controller and they’re staying here till past six o’clock at night or whatever. And then the first head of growth starts emulating them and doing all the things. And when you actually start to bring in experienced, talented marketers in charge of their own discipline, you see what the head of growth or the product person that’s doing marketing is doing, and you start to poke holes, you’ll realize that they’re making mistakes left and right or the, the devil’s in the details and like the marketing is like just not that good. 

There are so many unintended consequences of cutting those corners that in, in truly, it’s like short term, I’m saving the company money, when in reality you may not actually be saving the company money. And in fact, the opportunity cost is hurting the company because if you’re implementing these things, using an arsenal of specialists, doing it right the first time, not doing self-inflicted wounds, that is a way more scalable model. And you’re more likely to be able to take big swings and keep things in a sustainable growth model rather than like operating in an unsustainable model. 

Spencer

And I think one of the things you had brought up when we were preparing for this is that it’s, it’s hard to pull a product team person, an engineering team person away from the core product to do an automation platform or a CDP implementation. Something that, you know, maybe they’ve never done before, a tool they don’t know in a syntax eight you’ve never used. 

So not only do they have to learn all this stuff, but it’s also taking away from their core job. And so I think that’s something that we, a benefit that we offer a lot is just like, hey, listen, we’re not here to take anyone’s jobs, like whether it be an engineer or a marketer, like literally, we’re here to make you look better, to give you more time to be strategic and more thoughtful. Let us focus on the minutia within each platform. And then, like you just, you just get all of this utility back in your day 

Drew

And it’s good professional development practice as well. You’re teaching somebody how to delegate responsibly. 

You’re teaching them, you’re forcing, not forcing, you’re allowing them to be more strategic. Hey, when there are, so many times I talk to people and they’ve been working in a job for a few years and are upset about the ratio of time they spend, spend executing versus being strategic. 

And, they’ve just accepted this as the status quo status and are not really solution-oriented around it. They’re not taking the time to pause and to zoom out and to say, how can we fix this? What could be automated or delegated challenging the status quo? Why are we handling this internally? Do we need to fully rely on this new marketing ops function? Or who’s best to be in charge of reporting and keeping an eye on monitoring and all of that. 

Oftentimes there are things that you should still handle directly, but at the end of the day, you should be focused on innovation, moving the program forward, retiring things that are not effective, searching for the truth on what you’re maintaining. A lot of times we’re maintaining programs that are actually not really driving incremental improvement, but we wouldn’t know it based on the way we’re measuring it. 

So that’s the type of stuff that I try to mentor people about is we become unintentionally our worst enemies. And then we assume sometimes we, we assume we’re a victim of a culture or, you know, our manager has an offered for me to hire someone. So I guess like, I’m just stuck. This is where I have to live and I have to live in this space indefinitely. And that’s usually not the case. 

Steven

So when you, you sort of spoke about these different things that the, you want your core team to focus on. How do you think about going and actually hiring for those roles? Like what are you looking for? How do you actually even think about building out the team compared to like what you will sort of outsource, so to speak, versus what do you want to have kind of internally and what are your expectations with your outsourced resources? 

Drew

So when I did start to scale the team internally at Grammarly, for example, back in 2019, I took some time to think about, well, first of all, me and, and my ex-manager, Yuri Timon, we first said, let’s define the functions mission OKRs, essentially our North Star values, our principles, our operating principles. This was a time where I was suddenly, this might also be very relatable, going from being very proactive to suddenly becoming more of a services function as Grammarly grew more teams, customer insights, product marketing. I, I stepped on outside of product marketing and just focused more on lifecycle. I continued my journey there. 

I was becoming more reactive to other people’s ideas and needs. It was very important to me not to solve for short-term pain points or just hire my way out of like that, the, that situation. While that can be an effective model from an operational standpoint of like finding solutions to get yourself outta the weeds, what was more important to me was to think, think long term and to set people up into a role that was exciting, but most importantly, that principle of impact. 

So I hired a lead for product engagement based on the nature of Grammarly as a free and paid product and a utility software company and made sense, have someone in charge of product engagement, one of our, you know, biggest, most important metrics to investors, to us internally, weekly active users, daily active users. We need people getting value outta the product, understanding the product, et cetera. So not a monetization-focused role. The other lead I hired was a monetization-focused role and acting more like a growth marketer at scale, running experiments, setting up high-tempo testing. 

Basically do everything they could to move the needle on monetization, but not at the expense of engagement. And so those two had to, there’s a little bit of a Venn diagram where there’s a little bit of overlap, but what I didn’t do is hire a campaign manager, someone to just execute campaigns A to Z. That’s not super strategic to me. What I didn’t do is just hire another generalist to have the same scope that I had, but to handle day-to-day operations, it was important to me to have a goal that was both important to the business, but also would drive impact. And then the other one was an internal operations specialist to figure out how to stand up a services agency and to be more effective at servicing internal clients. 

Spencer

Yeah, and I, I liked your point about like, okay, we could, we could hire for these specific pain points to solve our issues right away, but internally here, Ragnarok, I call that a desperation hire. 

Not that we haven’t done it, but I, I don’t think it’s a, it’s a good strategy, at least for us over, we’re like a, we’re like a baseball team where like we like to invest in people over time. Yeah. Rather than just slapping a bandaid on it. 

So it’s a mix of bringing, so bringing in, 

Steven

so we’re minor-league baseball team then? 

Spencer

No, no, no. You we’re bringing people up from the minors, so Oh, yeah. For, you know, for the Mets where we, we bring in, we trade other people from other teams, but we’re also bringing up people, promising people from the minors and treating them from our, from our farm team down in AAA and High-A all that. 

Steven

Got it. I, I know you said the Mets, but I heard the Phillie, so I just want to wanna let you know that, you know, for anybody listening who doubts my baseball allegiances since I moved to Philadelphia, oh yeah. Please don’t hurt me on the street. Yeah. 

Spencer

Steven’s wife will not let him wear his Rangers hat because she’s worried that he’ll get beat up in Philly. 

Drew

That’s a fair concern. 

Steven

Yeah. 

Spencer

So Drew, you’ve talked about your time at Grammarly. You’ve talked about why it’s great to have specialists like in a, on in an agency format, join the team so that your team can focus. 

It can sometimes even be cheaper than hiring a bunch of specialists because it may not always be a full-time job for all these different specializations. 

Do you mind talking a little bit about how, how we all got involved in how, how you’ve seen that play out to your, to your, to your model in your, in your article? 

Drew

Yeah, sure. So I started my journey with Grammarly in 2014. Fast forward, we, 10 years later, 10 years plus, the thing that’s always been true is we need support, very specialized support to augment the complexity, the, the technical needs, the platform learning curves, the, okay, you have the strategy, but how do you implement this? 

And so when it was a very lean team, myself and, and a few others, the agency provided so much support so that I could stay above water and just as much as possible, focus on strategy. And when hiring a team, that was the same goal. How do I bring people in and not just give them all the A to Z grunt work so that they’re perpetually drowning, but how do I keep them above water as strategists? And in 2023, Grammarly made the decision to move off of our prior platform, Salesforce Marketing Cloud and we had a very, we had an agency that was only associated with Salesforce Marketing Cloud. 

So at that time, I started looking as a consultant at Grammarly, you know, in the last couple years. So not as a full-time employee, but I started doing a little research to find a new agency that could support us. Because even though I knew the team had grown, even though I knew they were standing up a marketing ops operation internally, there’s still so many use cases I could think for agency support, especially on the heels of a MI migration for a program as large as grammar release. And so at the, the lowest common denominator, it’s a like an insurance policy to have those experts in your corner. 

But, but knowing the nature of our programs and the expansion into enterprise and not just consumer for Grammarly, it’s like always the, the goalposts are moving. So same principles, we need technical support, we need people that understand now Iterable like, and, and potentially have decades of experience. 

Although I know Iterable has only been around for a decade, but I mean, when you stack up all the different people that are, that are there, we just can’t compete with that internally. And, and it, why should we, why should we spend our time spinning our wheels trying to become experts at Iterable when we can outsource that with a trusted partner and again, focus on innovation, focus on on strategy. So Ragnarok became one of the few candidates, and then Julie Long and the team decided to bring you all in. And, and so far it’s going really well. Happy to chat about that further. 

Spencer

Excellent. I mean, I feel really buttered up right now, so I’m, I’m just,

Steven

You know, when he is like, “can we chat about further,” I’m like, well, well, what’s going well? You know, just, but I think, I think that’s a, it’s a good, I was actually gonna ask you, Drew, more about, you know, how do you even think about from a like, like crafting that message internally to your executive team to say, you know, like, Hey, I wanna, I want a budget that’s not a full-time headcount for a resource that’s going to give my full-time headcount more runway. Like how does that, how does that kind of sold internally, right? Because you, you, I tend to see some executives who have a stronger vision of, I want everybody on my team to be, you know, I, I want to have the flexibility to not have to pay for more hours if I need to work ’em a little bit harder this week. 

You know? And, and, and there’s some of that friction that you get in the process. How have you kind of brought this, which does is very sensical, but you know, internally, how have you kind of got gotten past those barriers to people who are a little bit less comfortable with working with an external partner? 

Drew

So I can speak to the old guard mentality at Grammarly, which was, I didn’t have a budget, you know, paid acquisition. There was a, there was  a well-wheeled machine on managing monies there, but for lifecycle, because of our volume, because of how profitable the channel was for us, it was always a philosophical conversation from the head of growth in marketing, Yuri Timon. And I would come into the one-on-ones, and I learned very quickly that it couldn’t just be I planted a seed and like, Hey, what do you think? I needed to have a case built out of a solution in mind. 

And otherwise, it would turn into months of like conversations where he would just like play devil’s advocate or contrarian or just ask philosophical questions. And I realized it was up to, the onus was on me to kind of like prove out the case and also come up with something that was respectful to the company and not just like, Hey, yeah, I wanna give an agency $40,000 a month. 

And they say they can do great things. So that’s one way to answer it. The new guard, I do think there is a budget specifically for the lifecycle team, and it’s less about like, prove out the principled case and the projections are well-oiled machines and all that kind of stuff. But with a lot of clients in lifecycle leads that I mentor, they have smaller budgets many times, and they do have a budget or they run into internal friction in some of these debates. And like, it can get really political at times. And so one of the thought exercises I like to give is, okay, so you’ve gotten permission or you are almost at a permission milestone to hire someone in the 100 to 125K range or something along those lines. 

Well, by nature you’re going to be getting a generalist. You’re not getting a seasoned veteran with a lot of leverage and all of the pattern recognition and a and like a game plan that’s gonna necessarily hit the ground running. 

They, they need a lot of coaching training and you’re, you’re gonna end up giving them things over time. So I in those cases, try to make the case of like, well, what do you think $7,000 a month with an agency could get you if you continue to be the strategist and innovator? Like, do you, are you sure that you wanna add people management onto your plate, which is gonna turn into 40% or so of your time? And, like all of these nuances that people oftentimes don’t think about because they’re just trying to follow a traditional game plan. And so that’s one example of how I would chat about this. 

Steven

I love that. Yeah. I mean, sort of comes back to how can I flip the onus back on you person who’s asking me for something? I love that. But No, that makes a lot of sense. And, and you know, one of the, the, the, the sort thing like I wanna kind of dig a little bit deeper on is getting that principle case in there, right? Like proving it out. I mean, in some cases, you have to find an agency that’s that’s willing to, to sort of come in at a lower budget, go through a sales cycle, it’s just as expensive at a as one that will be, you know, a, a much more profitable retainer for them. 

How do you kind of, how do you kind of sell the agency on this idea? I mean, you know, obviously, people are chasing the work, but you know, we just kind of being on this side for so long have such experience on it, you know, you don’t, you don’t really want to be in a, in a cycle where you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re selling hope. You wanna, you know, you wanna sort of sell the resourcing and, and the outcomes as opposed to let’s try this for three months and hope that, you know, we can build enough executive alignment, because that’s a that’s always a tough, you know, thing to negotiate where you’re investing so much upfront time and you know, growing over hours purposefully just to get the project underway and you’re not gonna really you on the chance that you might be able to claw some of that back. 

Drew

Yeah. You know, I think being specific at first and kind of having that crawl, walk, run, phased approach is, is good. Agencies, one advantage is unlike platforms, you’re not necessarily looking at a year-long contract. You can usually come up with a three or six-month test or something along those lines with Grammarly, the first thing that we outsourced is support, ticketing support, and investigations. I was just tired of the bureaucracy of not getting the right answer within 48 hours from submitting a ticket on Salesforce’s portal, being mostly a self-serve client. And so it was a fairly nominal retainer at first. 

And then I had a lot of trust in that, that agency and also the agency model because my first three years in email marketing was out on the agency side at a direct marketing agency. This was in the, like 2007 to 2010. 

And we were, we were doing A/B testing, we were getting tons of campaigns out per week for the Home Depot. And I did that for three years. And I understood that if an agency can work, it’s which agency and, and they’re obviously not all equal, but yeah, for me, it was just, I need to get them in the door. I know how good these people are and how much easier they’re going to make my life. So let’s start with this pain point, the ticketing stuff, and then it’s great to know that they’re full service behind, behind that, and we can see what else we can give them over time and test them out. Let’s just test them out. 

Steven

Makes sense. 

Spencer

Yeah, I mean, I think we went through the same exercise with it where we, we had a whole internal debate for a few months about whether we were gonna hire an IT team internally. 

And it’s just like, who’s gonna manage that person? Well, none of us are IT experts, you know, like how do you grow their career? How do you train them on anything? It’s like, so we, we made the call to, to bring in, you know, an MSP and we were actually, we, we found one that was really good. We’re still working with them a few years later. So it’s, you know, there were some growing pains at first as we got used to this. Like, like, wait, I have to tell you to do that and I have to click what now? But overall, like the fact that we don’t have to think about it 99% of the time and they do all the setup and everything, it’s just, it, it’s like, okay, we can focus on what we’re good at, what our goals are, and this IT team who knows exactly what they’re doing on the IT side, this very narrow focus. 

Like we just trust them to get it done and they do. So. 

Drew

Nice. 

Spencer

Yeah, 

Drew

Great example. And, and I think just to bubble things up to a framework of what a trying to communicate is low risk, high leverage, find something that’s low risk, high leverage and like repeat and keep, keep trying that. 

Spencer

So to recap what we’ve talked about today, “today”. It’s all about why you should work with an agency, which is pretty much all the time, feel free to hire us. You know, it’s fine. No, it’s when you are trying to expand your initiatives, when you’re trying to get more done, when you, when you see there’s all this opportunity, but if you keep hiring generalists, it’s not really going to get you the outcome you want. And if you bring in specialists who focus on a few hours a week doing email production or writing a very detailed brief about one specific campaign, then they can, that’s what they do all day every day. 

And so you’re getting a much better outcome because it would be hard to, it would be impossible unless the company is like a, I don’t know an insurance provider or something to have a full-time role doing just email designer, just email production. It’s something that’s more like, you know, 10 hours a week or 15 hours a week or something like that. So Drew, I’m, you know, what’s your take on that? I am, I’m kind of cannibalizing and butchering your, your article, but please give us your take on that to kind of wrap us up here. 

Drew

Yeah, no, I like your perspective there. That was great. You did good, Spencer. So 

Spencer

Thank you.

Drew

I guess to wrap it up, what I would say is our job is to drive impact, to build trust with customers at scale and to try and stay in innovation mode as po as much as possible. A lot of times we do what we think is the most comfortable approach or what is expected of us and unknowingly create a Frankenstein and a situation where we are now stuck in maintenance mode, and we get well beyond that state of innovation and impact and truth and trust. And it’s usually unintentional, but it happens all the time. 

And so I’m contrarian that you need to do empire building and have, you know, like, and, and become people, manager of people managers, and do all these types of things. I think run as lean as you can for as long as you can and, and outsource those specialized technical areas of your day-to-day operations. You’ll thank me later. And I think ultimately you’ll, you’ll just stay above water and be able to focus on the forest from the trees. 

Spencer

Steven, do you have anything to say? Do you have anything to say for yourself, young man? 

Steven

Oh, I have lots of things to say for myself, sir. No, I think, you know, just to, just to echo back, you know, drew, just really appreciate you being on here and, and I think just the fact that you are a coach and a mentor really comes through in the conversation here. And, you know, I would of, of course encourage anyone who’s, who’s in a CRM role or marketing ops role that could largely benefit from your coaching or mentoring to reach out to you. Especially as much as we love to self-promote on our own podcast, I think it’s, you know, equally, you’re, you’ve been an amazing partner for us as well, and so, you know, I think there’s a lot of, a lot of folks out there that could benefit from your knowledge and your experience. 

Drew

Appreciate that, Steven. Yeah, hit me up anytime. Career advice, tech stack advice, agency advice. I love having those conversations. 

Spencer

So yeah, we’ll, you know, we’ll put up a, a link to Substack, we’ll put your social security number and your home address, your, your deepest, darkest fears and everybody can reach out and, you know, go, you’ll go from there. You’ll take it from there, you know. 

Drew

Perfect. Happy to return the favor, by the way. 

Spencer

Alright guys, well thank you so much. I think that’s all for today. Do not forget if you’ve made it to the end. Thank you. Please subscribe. If this is your first episode, wherever you get your podcast, follow us on LinkedIn because that is the main social platform that matters for us. We have a large following on there. Instagram’s a little sad. Follow us on LinkedIn. 

All right. Thanks, everybody. Bye 

Drew

Adios. Thank you. 

Steven

Bye.